An Interview With Narayana Murthy

Narayana Murthy speaks exclusively to NDTV

Dr. Roy: Thank you very much everyone, thank you Mr. Murthy. I would say that Infosys is for me & for may people in India more than just a multi billion dollar company. For many of the younger generation and many of the young people here about half my age actually it symbolizes hope; it symbolizes confidence; it symbolizes what new India is capable of doing. Taking on the world and beating the world in its own game – and they have done it by themselves. They weren’t handed down any money, they weren’t handed down any assets. and I would say Mr. Murthy you may not agree because you are a modest person. I think in my view Infosys has done single handedly more to change the mood of this country than any other institution I can think of post independence. And the one man who symbolizes Infosys, its hope, its confidence, its values, its ethics and its high PE ratio! Mr. Narayana Murthy.

Mr. Murthy: Thank you. Thanks Prannoy for those very kind words. You’ve always been very kind to me.

Mr. Murthy: Well, you know I do, I do, buy a lot of gadgets. I buy lots of books. On an average I buy books worth about twenty, thirty thousand rupees a month and I have to have the latest gadget. You know my colleagues Shibu, Chris and I have this eternal race to be the smartest in gadget world and I buy lots of music, you know, CD’s and DVD’s, so I do spend a little money.

Dr. Roy: That’s not bad actually. What about the Bahamas?

Mr. Murthy: No, I think I’m all the time so busy travelling from one place to another. I don’t know where I’m going, where I’m coming from so really I, I don’t worry about geographies at all.

Dr. Roy: Without getting too philosophical with this question but what does money mean to you. I mean as an entrepreneur, when you started, what did money mean? Was it the end it itself or is there a bigger kick than money?

Mr. Murthy: No, I think from the first day when we founded the company, when we had the discussion on what the objectives of the company should be I’m glad all of us decided unanimously that we would seek respect; respect from customers, from employees, from investors, from vendor partners, from the government of the land and the society because we said if we sought respect we would not short-change our customers, we will be fair with our employees, we will be transparent with our investors, we will be fair with our vendor partners, we will not violate any law of the land and we will live in harmony with the society. In that sense I think being a middle class person, respect means a lot more to all of us than money. But certainly, money is very very important to live a comfortable life; there is no doubt at all. But at the end of the day as I said several years ago at the Business India award function the power of money is really the power to give it away. I mean Bill Gates has demonstrated it, Warren Buffet has demonstrated it. At the end of the day I think you have so many cars, so many houses, you can have so many CD’s, I suppose.

Dr. Roy: So is one day, is Mr. Murthy going to give away most of his money?

Mr. Murthy: Well, what we will do is we have what ever money we have, we put it into corpus and what ever returns we get on an annual basis, I’d say most of it will go for philanthropy yes.

Dr. Roy: So one day most of your money will go for charity.

Mr. Murthy: I think so…yes.

Dr. Roy: I hope your children are not listening to this.

Mr. Murthy: Well, you know, I mean..

Dr. Roy: I’d say they’ll be very proud.

Mr. Murthy: I’m sure they’ll be very happy, but…

Dr. Roy: And I’m sure they are doing very well on their own and they may surpass you one day.

Mr. Murthy: I hope so. It would be a pleasure.

Dr. Roy: I met your wonderful wife, I have great admiration for the work she has done. I want to go back to when you actually married her. Now, before you married her, you were doing one or two crazy things, socialistic things like you used to go … every day to the railway station and pay the beggars some money and then go home. But after you married her, you’ve become more capitalist and she’s become more socialist.

Mr. Murthy: Yes. Well, I’ve always said that she is more evolved of the two species at home. But having said that I must say there has to be somebody who earns so that the other person can spend. In that sense capitalism is a good tool to earn money so…

Dr. Roy: Actually. She was very socialistic. She looked after you for many years.

Mr. Murthy: I know. Absolutely. In fact at the end of the day I had to borrow money from her and she kept account of that.

Dr. Roy: She kept account … But did you ever pay it back?

Mr. Murthy: Not in a formal way, but I hope that she has a sense that I’ve indeed paid back.

Dr. Roy: Now, in our first section before we get on to you as an entrepreneur and then in the third section, your views about India I just want to carry on a bit about your personal life but it is so difficult with you because everybody who works with you says your personal life and Infosys are just merged into one another. It’s like you almost ran Infosys instinctively. It’s like a part of your body when you feel something is going wrong, you sense it before everybody else. There was a time when you sensed something was going wrong with Infosys when nobody else did. Kind of losing control and you warned everybody. How important is that instinct in running your business?

Mr. Murthy: Well, instinct is very important. Its, its like you know when your child is not well, when your child is unhappy, I think the parents instinctively sense it right, you know that. So in that sense I suppose it comes natural because you’ve seen this child grow. You’ve given birth to the child, you’ve seen the child grow, you’ve seen the different phases of the child, the happiness, the sorrow, anxiety, the joy and all that. In that sense I suppose you…once you know the child very well…in other words once you know the business very well, once you know the notes of the business well, once you know the business model very well, once you go into the depths of what makes the business succeed once you live it, I do think it becomes natural.

Dr. Roy: But there was a time when you saw something and others didn’t.

Mr. Murthy: No….I think my friend Mohan has been very kind to me. But I think all of us have seen the science of good days and the not so good days, its just that I am perhaps more proactive, I am perhaps more articulate about these things. I don’t think I should claim any special credit.

Dr. Roy: You were mentioning something like there was a time many years ago that something was losing control. What did you mean by that?

Mr. Murthy: You know I mean, there were, there were always times when, you know after all there’s a member that we have had a wonderful run for the last hundred quarters or so 25 years. So once or twice, its, I’m sure you know when things perhaps were not going well. And then you know.

Dr. Roy: And you don’t mean just financially, you mean other aspects.

Mr. Murthy: Other aspects also. But I think the good thing about this group is we are in an environment of meritocracy. We are an enlightened of democracy. Anybody can point out mistakes, anybody can improve; can come out with improving ideas. So in that sense I suppose.

Dr. Roy: But tell me when your personal life and Infosys is so much a part of you and that’s your entire existence does that make you a lonely man.

Mr. Murthy: Leadership is always lonely. You know there is really you know while it is a democracy, while you discuss and debate etc., there are times when you have to make that ultimate call. So in that sense I suppose it is lonely. Its, you know, after all the journey of Infosys is like a marathon. I mean we all have heard about the loneliness of the long distance runner. So in that sense you know you are running that marathon. The other people are cheering you by the side. They are ready to give you a glass of water, but you are running that marathon. You have to take those decisions. You have to make that call. So in that sense I suppose it does get lonely. There is no doubt at all.

Dr. Roy: And how when you are in those lonely moments how do you handle yourself?

Mr. Murthy: You know, I have never got upset when there was a serious problem. When there was a crisis, because I believe that is the time when the father of the house or the mother of the house, whatever, it has to give confidence to younger people, to children, has to show, show courage, has to show you know sense of dedication. So in that sense I suppose I remain silent.

Dr. Roy: You remain silent?

Mr. Murthy: Yea, I remain.

Dr. Roy: When you are at your loneliest?

Mr. Murthy: Oh yes…yes absolutely.

Dr. Roy: Interesting. But I must disagree with you on one thing in life. All the modern…

Mr. Murthy: Only one thing?

Dr. Roy: All the modern data, all the mortality rates, longevities rates show that you will probably live till you’re 95 and you will be extremely healthy till you’re about 85 and mentally active, which means that you have about 25 years of active life and yet you retire at 60 years. Isn’t that out of date? You should be working till you’re 85.

Mr. Murthy: No I mean I have believed right from the beginning in the power feuds, in the in the importance of leveraging the energy, the confidence, the enthusiasm of youth in building a corporation, in building a community, in building a nation. So if we respect youth, then we have to demonstrate our belief by action, we have to walk the talk, we have to show leadership examples.

Dr. Roy: But I can understand 60 years retirement fifty years ago or hundred years ago (to the audience) how many of you think he should not retire, he should work till he is 85. Look at that … an overwhelming response.

Mr. Murthy: No I mean, you are brain washing them and of course they are all very kind. They are all very kind. But, but lets remember India is a nation of a billion people. The demographics of India says that there is vast majority or until 35 and in such a nation it is very very important for us who are much older to send a signal that we want the youth to lead this country. We want the youth to lead, you know, the corporation. So that’s a firm belief of mine.

Dr. Roy: Actually, lets look at it positively. You’ve got 25 years active maybe 30 active years left.

Mr. Murthy: Sure.

Dr. Roy: There is lots you can do for the country, lots you can do for the society. What is your one big ambition left?

Mr. Murthy: You know, living the big ambition is to see an India where every child has access to reasonable level of education, health care, nutrition and shelter.

Dr. Roy: What for yourself, personally? Would you like to be the health minister?

Mr. Murthy: No I…

Dr. Roy: Education minister? Shouldn’t you join politics?

Mr. Murthy: I…

Dr. Roy: Show the way.. (audience says “no”) no? No….They don’t want you to join politics

Mr. Murthy: See… I mean… They know it well. They know it very well.

Dr. Roy: (audience suggests “President”) President of India?

Mr. Murthy: No I personally feel that, as I’ve often said that’s too complex a canvas, that’s too large a canvas. The fact that some of us has had, you know, have had a little bit of success in running a corporation which is a very simple canvas does not automatically mean that we will be able to handle this complex canvas which… which effects multiple device.

Dr. Roy: 25 years next what’s one big thing that you would like to do?

Mr. Murthy: You know, my son keeps nagging me, berating me, saying that you know we have still not written down what you want to do in the next 5 years, forget about 25 years. Somehow I suppose that my…my inability to detach myself from Infosys is what is at the bottom of it all. You know, I mean, I have given up my position; I have shifted my office to the heritage building. I have done all the visible signs, I don’t, I don’t you know take part in any decision-making. All of that is there. But somehow at the back of my mind I cant say that my…my…life at Infosys is over and that’s probably why I’m not able to sit down, dispassionately and logically and objectively and say this is what I will do in the next 5 years.

Dr. Roy: Because you haven’t cut the umbilical cord yet?

Mr. Murthy: That’s the problem. That I think I… I have to overcome that. You know, I mean it’s not easy.

Dr. Roy: That’s very introspective that you’ve walked the talk symbolically.

Mr. Murthy: Yea…yea.

Dr. Roy: But not emotionally.

Mr. Murthy: That’s the issue. You know as far as the outside world is concerned I have put in place all that is required to say that this man is a man of the past. I’ve done that. Except that I am the non-executive chairman. But internally I have not been able to do that.

Dr. Roy: It still worries you? You still get nervous ever?

Mr. Murthy: Oh yes…oh yes…very much…very much. But it’s not the nervousness. I think that Nandan and Chris are smarter than me. That’s not the issue. The issue is somehow I can’t say that from tomorrow I will not walk into Infosys. That I am not able to say. That’s the problem. That’s it.

Dr. Roy: But maybe nobody wants you to say that!

Mr. Murthy: Well I think my colleagues have been extra ordinarily kind to me, there is no doubt at all.

Dr. Roy: I heard you were very nervous once. When the Infosys Nasdaq listing was about to take place and you were sitting there in Nasdaq, with the big screen in front of you and the Infosys price was about to flash and you were visibly nervous.

Mr. Murthy: Yea I know there were many many reasons for that. First of all, I was asked to sit on a high stool. You know and I’m not… not very comfortable. Second, that was the first time an India registered company was being floated on Nasdaq. And then you know I had just come back from San Francisco, I had taken a red eye. In other words I came to the hotel, took bath and immediately came to Nasdaq…whatever…market side. And then my view was oh my god, you know, if this issue…if the…if the if the… when it starts trading if the price is below the listing price, oh my god what a bad image for the country and of course for Infosys. But still lets remember it was for India first. So I was very nervous. Extremely nervous and then you know my good friend Mohan, of course he’s a tall guy, he was in the back and…. and he said everything is fine because the screen was at the back. I couldn’t see the ticker tape. I was…I was extremely worried.

Dr. Roy: And it then went from 37 to 52 dollars in a few hours.

Mr. Murthy: Yea, something like that. You know, god has been very kind to us.

Dr. Roy: It’s amazing.

Mr. Murthy: Very kind to us.

Dr. Roy: Just going from the personal to the business, a lot of people here would have heard the well known saying in business, like you develop a relationship with somebody in a business and then he jacks you somehow and he says look, business is business, personal I’m a great guy. Do you believe that? Can anybody be different in business and different in personal life?

Mr. Murthy: No, I don’t think so. In fact my friend John Hundsmith he has written about it and he says that there is nothing like business ethics. Ethics is ethics.

Dr Roy: Right.

Mr. Murthy: And all of us have to confirm to ethics in our personal life, in our business etc. etc. So I don’t, that you can compartmentalise ethics in business and ethics in personal life or you can compartmentalise conduct in personal life and conduct in business.

Dr. Roy: So if somebody tells you business is business, bad luck. I’ll renege on this deal that’s the end of him for you personally as well.

Mr. Murthy: Oh very much…very much…yea. Because that signifies to me that that individual clearly lacks value system. Because value system is translates to paying a certain cost for your belief. Value system is always tested in at the moment of adversity, in difficult times. Values system is not when everything is going well. So that…that says very clearly about the individual.

Dr. Roy: Mr. Murthy, everybody knows about your success. But there are lot of youngsters here, lot of us as well, who’ve been through failures and what they want to know is… what do you learn from failure? In fact, not many people know that your first entrepreneurship venture was Softronics.

Mr. Murthy: Yes yes.

Dr. Roy: A small company

Mr. Murthy: That’s right.

Dr. Roy: On your own

Mr. Murthy: That’s right.

Dr. Roy: which lasted about two three years or something?

Mr. Murthy: about a little over a year and a half.

Dr. Roy: A year and a half …

Mr. Murthy: I’m pretty quick in finding out my weak points.

Dr. Roy: Then you went to Patni Computers and then you set up Infosys. So what did you learn from that first failure which you changed when you started Infosys which everybody could learn from.

Mr. Murthy: Well, you know … I

Dr. Roy: Because many people have had failures.

Mr. Murthy: I learnt the clear thing and that is there must be a market that is ready to value your idea. I… I had a fairly good idea but at that time the Indian market was not ready for the idea. On the other hand when we founded Infosys, we said we will look at the global market. So the first lesson was very clearly that unless the market is ready for your idea, you will not succeed. Second, I think you have to bring together a tem, which has an enduring value system, a common enduring value system. But at the same time has what I would call mutually exclusive but collectively exhaustive set of skills, expertise and experience. For example in the founding team, I you know had strengths in what could be termed strategy today and finance. Finance is my strength. Nandan had strengths in sales and marketing, Raghavan had strength in human resources, Shibu had strength in…in…in… project management, Chris had strength in technology leadership, etc. etc. So we brought together a group of people who had complimentary strengths, so… that’s very very important.

Dr. Roy: And I guess

Mr. Murthy: But enduring value system is very important.

Dr. Roy: I guess the lesson to anybody who’s failed or who going through tough times is that you can be a billionaire if you keep trying. So failure means only a temporary setback. Right?
Mr. Murthy: Oh absolutely.

Dr. Roy: Never get disheartened by it.

Mr. Murthy: Absolutely… absolutely. As long as you learn from that and next time you do you incorporate that learning into what you do next That’s exactly what I did when Infosys was founded.

Dr. Roy: You changed the market. You made a team.

Mr. Murthy: Absolutely… absolutely.

Dr. Roy: The 2 big learning process.

Mr. Murthy: That’s right…that’s right.

Dr. Roy: But HR is now one of your big strengths and one of Infosys’s big strengths. But you (personally) have some very unorthodox ways of HR. Tell us about how you recruited Mr. Mohandas Pai. It was a long rigorous serious process of panels etc, was it?

Mr. Murthy: No, actually you know, I believe that learnability is the most important attribute for success in any job. I define learnability as the ability to extract generic inferences out of specific instances and using them in new and structured situations. Mohan attended our road show presentation in Bangalore and he asked me some deep searching questions.

Dr. Roy: So he was like just somebody here?

Mr. Murthy: Exactly.

Dr. Roy: And when the questions start you may recruit somebody?

Mr. Murthy: Oh of course absolutely.

Dr. Roy: So you just saw him (Mohandas Pai)?

Mr. Murthy: Well you know .. I mean, he asked us 4 or 5 questions that went to the heart of our business model. Those questions differentiated wheat from the chaff. Those questions told us that this man thinks on his feet. Because I don’t think he understood our business.

Dr. Roy: He wasn’t in software?

Mr. Murthy: No, no he wasn’t in software, he was in logistics. In fact I took him through a 7-day programme where I built an entire business model for him.

Dr. Roy: So you didn’t have an HR company, you didn’t have a panel, somebody from an audience stood up and now he’s one of your top 3 people in Infosys?

Mr. Murthy: And one of the most successful people. Absolutely. You know I mean.

Dr. Roy: So that’s the way you should recruit people? Instinct?

Dr. Roy: One of the things you are famous for is making a lot of people in Infosys very rich, through Esops …which is a wonderful way of rewarding people and sharing wealth But I’ve heard now that there’s a downside to it. Some of them got so rich, that their families started saying – look why are you working 22 hours a day, we can go to the Bahamas, we can live a life of ease. Is there another side to Esops that you don’t want people to become too rich?

Mr. Murthy: No, no no, I don’t think I should play God, I don’t think that’s right. What we did was a wonderful experiment. The largest experiment in democratisation of wealth in the country. Now it is for those individuals to make the decisions. Some of them have gone ahead and founded new companies for example my friend and colleague, Devdutt also made lots of money. Now he’s become a venture capitalist, he’s investing in private equity. Why not? Somebody else has founded a new company, a third person built a golf course and a resort, a 4th person said I just want to retire. Why not? So I would say that there’ll always be a certain percentage of people who would get tired of running this marathon and they’ll drop off at some point. I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because a small percentage of people decided to drop out from the marathon.

Dr. Roy: You gave them a pretty comfortable landing.

Mr. Murthy: Infosys gave them and after all lets remember that they have played a very significant part in creating what Infosys is today and they certainly deserved ever cent of it so I don’t even think of that as anybody giving it to them or infosys bestowing something extra. I think it’s just that they deserved it.

Dr. Roy: Right, tell us about another big catastrophic moment in your life and Infosys’s life. Go back to when you were sitting across the table with General Electric GE, your biggest customer and you just could not agree on the terms and you walked away from your biggest customer. How did you handle that?

Mr. Murthy: Well you know, it was a time when Phaneesh had just taken over as head of sales and GE came to Bangalore and they put all of us in different rooms in typical GE way and they were very aggressive about their negotiations and we explained to them why it is not good for them to negotiate so much because at the end of the day, we have to invest in technology, invest in people, we have to invest in training you know, all of that and we said that cannot be done without money and there’s only one person who gives money and that’s the customer but they didn’t listen to us. They said you know other companies are willing to sign on the dotted line and I had to make a tough decision. That’s when- like you were talking about loneliness? There was Nandan, there was Phaneesh everybody’s sitting there and I had to say “Thank you very much, I don’t think we’ll be able to do it”. So we did that and I’ll tell you when we were coming back in the car from hotel Westend I don’t know wherever the GE people were there, Phaneesh was very very upset with me because I was very calm, very cool. He said, “You know, you don’t seem to be worried at all.” I just smiled and later on after that once I told him I said “Phaneesh I was at least as much worried about this as you, but when there is a crisis at home, when the child is not well, the father and mother would not say oh my god there’s a crisis, this will happen, that will happen, the child may die.” that never happens, nobody says that instead they show a lot of composure, they give confidence to other siblings that everything will be alright. I said, so remember, in your moment of panic, in your moment of crisis, you have to remain cool and calm and that really was a wonderful moment.

Dr. Roy: And they were your biggest customers at that time. It was a very brave and tough decision.

Mr. Murthy: Absolutely. They contributed 25% of our top line and also of our bottom line and of course it was their right to decide what to do and what not to do and it was their right to demand any price, I don’t question that, but the fact of the matter was we realized that we just couldn’t continue with that model. Later on CEOs of other companies told me that what you did was right because at least one other company walked out of GE later on, you know the GE contract …so.

Dr. Roy: I have so many more questions. I do want to go to the audience but I want to do a short 2-3 minute bit about the bigger picture – politics and life and capitalism. Basically the criticism could be levied on you that you are a strong critic of what’s happening in India – politicians are failing. Why don’t you join the system and change it from within?

Mr. Murthy: No, What I think I am asking, what I am critiquing is all about basic values. If we want this society to be a better place, if we want our children to inherit a better place than what we have got, we have to conduct ourselves according to the basic accepted protocol of behaviour, whether it is in Infosys, whether it is in NDTV, in India as a country or Bangalore as a city, we have to exhibit it. That’s all I’m talking about, I have never commented on the political decisions, never talked about intricacies of politics because I don’t understand that. If… It’s difficult for me to imagine that a murderer could be a member of cabinet and that’s simply not acceptable. Right? I think these are all basic issues. It’s not right. I do think that role models are extremely important in this society. I’ll give you a very simple example. Day before yesterday, I was in Jaipur and Mohan wanted me to go to Akshaypatra, there’s a mid-day-meal scheme because Infosys is participating in it … I met about 30-40 children. I spent about a minute with each of these children, talking to them about their studying, what their aspirations are, what they wanted to become and I spoke in English and every one of them replied in Hindi and as I was going from the 20th or the 25th I realized, these children are shy, they are reticent, they don’t want to be seen as committing a mistake and they were afraid to speak English, so I said – how do I solve this problem? How do I create a sense of confidence in 30 – 40 children? I realized that the best way would be if I also showed a little bit of courage, it’s all about courage, confidence etc. So, there was a press conference with all the children around me and for the first time in my life, I handled that press conference in Hindi. And then seeing me commit such basic mistakes in gender, speaking Hindi and of course in grammar – all these children started laughing. And later on when they came to receive gifts from me, every one of them spoke English. They’d commit mistakes. So the moral of the story is- our youngsters, our children want role models. They want to see courage, confidence, enthusiasm, energy in our leaders. Whether they be corporate leaders, whether they be political leaders or bureaucrats, it doesn’t matter who it is. They want to see all the good values that we want them to emulate. That’s the only thing that bothers me.

Dr. Roy: In fact talking about language, does it worry you now to see many states, doing away with English at school, having their local languages and losing what India could have as a major advantage in the years to come?

Mr. Murthy: It does worry me, for a very simple reason – that the mobility of our children gets restricted. For example, a child that learns only in Kannada in Karnataka will not have an opportunity for a job in Tamil Nadu, in Uttar Pradesh, in Bombay or wherever else.

Dr. Roy: Let alone outside India.

Mr. Murthy: Let alone outside India. This is not good for our children. We have to enhance the probability of their success in leading a better quality of life and by putting these artificial restrictions what we are doing is- there is a small section of vested interest, which has reserved all goodies for itself. That vested interest group is saying – for the rest of the vast majority – we don’t care. In fact, I tell you I did have a meeting once with, in Karnataka, the chief minister, the Kannada hero, the chief secretary, the education minister etc. Upfront I told them that both my children are studying abroad and I don’t know what our grandchildren will do, so I have no vested interest and then I asked the Kannada hero- his children went to English medium school, the chief minister’s children went to English medium school, the chief secretary’s children went to English medium school. Then I asked a fundamental question, I said, “Look why is it that we think that there is something that is good for this group and not good for the vast majority of India?”

Dr. Roy: And what did he say?

Mr. Murthy: No answer.

Dr. Roy: Ok, so let’s throw open the questions to the floor. Lots of questions. How about this young gentleman, right in front here? If you could just say your name and then ask the question.

Mr. Murthy: I have one principle, you know at Infosys. Generally we say, ultimately it has to be a lady and a man, you can say girls and boys, but generally the first opportunity is given to a lady.

Dr. Roy: Any ladies first? There’s a young lady there. Go ahead ma’am. You can ask personal, business, politics, anything right?

Mr. Murthy: Anything, anything.

Woman in audience: Hello

Dr. Roy: Yeah…Go ahead.

Woman in audience: Mr. Murthy, I had raised this point, I think, the day before. It’s we’re talking about a resurgent India, we’re talking about… we’ve discussed and debated and how all of us are confident and we want to move into the new era. A lot of English as how I would put it. Why are we still having legislature talking about reservations, we’re still having the education minister introducing reservations in the field of education. If we want to promote entrepreneurship, I think we have to promote meritocracy. And the question to you, because you wield so much influence. I come from Karnataka, from Bangalore and we pretty much read about you everyday. A little thought on how we can create a movement to promote meritocracy in its truest sense and a little bit of that moving to the media bit because I think media also to a very large extent sensationalizes.

Mr. Murthy: You know I have often said and I’ll say it again- that the current pattern of reservation that we have adopted is not good for many many reasons. First of all, we have not excluded the creamy layer. That shows very clearly that it is a set of people with vested interests who want to keep certain goodies for themselves. I think that’s something completely wrong. Secondly, we have not done a good job in the last 50 years or 60 years in ensuring that the disadvantaged section of society got an adequate chance to enhance their competencies. I think if you remember when Nehru introduced this reservation stuff, it was originally supposed to be for a certain period. The assumption was that all of us would work very very hard to make sure that the disadvantaged sections of society received all the benefits and they became as competition worthy as anyone else. But unfortunately, we did not take accountability for that task and we continued this system. That’s the second reason why I’m not very very happy. The third thing is having learnt from that lesson, this time should’ve said- how do we make sure that there is better accountability amongst our bureaucracy to ensure that these disadvantaged people become, within a certain fixed time become competition worthy. Then I would’ve accepted it. Ok this is for the next 15 years; all of us have strict targets that these people come up to the standards.

Dr. Roy: Some kind of affirmative action for the lower income groups, not based on caste or a religion?

Mr. Murthy: That of course is the 4th one, what has happened is, this is all based on caste in fact one of the main reasons why India has not made much progress and if we continue such caste based stuff, it is unlikely to make significant progress. Is because of the caste system. We have become divisive. On Other hand if it was a class-based reservation that is anybody who is disadvantaged economically, that would have made more sense.

Dr. Roy: Now the young gentleman. Ladies please get ready for your next round.

Young man in audience: Mr. Murthy, Thank you for being a role model for all of us. You’ve been a great inspiration to a lot of people than you can imagine. My question is based on the value system. You’ve been extremely clear of your value system, you’ve walked the talk. Black or white no shades of grey, but we live in a society where you have to interact with people maybe at politics, maybe in business where the other party will not share your value system and clearly their definition of values is completely different from your own. How have you, through your life so far, been faced with such a situation, dealt with people like that? Thank you.

Mr. Murthy: First of all I don’t want to be saying that we are the only guys doing it. I think every human being wants to be honest, wants to receive respect, you know all of that. There is no doubt about it. But I think whenever we have been put in a situation where we have to compromise our values we said we will pay the cost. In some cases we got out of certain businesses where we had lots of interface with the government. In some cases we paid more money for the same asset that we are requiring compared to what would’ve been possible if we had agreed to pay some money as bribe. So in other words, once you’re willing to pay the cost for your belief, then this becomes very simple. Value system actually translates to paying a certain extra cost for your belief.

Dr. Roy: You translate everything into hard numbers. In fact you have one person at Infosys who translates everything into hard numbers for you?

Mr. Murthy: I’m crazy about numbers. But…I have a few people who do that yes.

Dr. Roy: Who just translate every emotion into numbers. Yes ma’am?

Second woman in audience: Can you just prescribe one single mantra for the success of the business of all the budding entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs who are assembled here? Just can you give it one word?

Mr. Murthy: No I don’t know if there’s one, but I would say you have to benchmark yourself globally if you want to succeed in the long term. Second you have to create an environment of openness to new ideas, meritocracy, speed, imagination and excellence in execution. Third you should have an enduring value system. There are many many more, but I would say these certainly would suffice.

Dr. Roy: The young gentleman in the middle there? In the striped shirt.

Second young man in audience: Hello Sir, my name is Naseer. My question is about the middle class. As you mentioned you have come from the middle class and you have a value system, which is again based on the middle class. Now today there’s a talk about the middle class as a large consumer segment, what I’m thinking is if this middle class were to develop a large number of entrepreneurs, you know a large number of entrepreneurs from this middle class, we can propel India forward. What is your thought on this? To develop entrepreneurs from the middle class who may not have access to that quality of education or to develop high skilled entrepreneurs.

Mr. Murthy: No, I do think that the middle class in India has decent opportunities for education, for entrepreneurship. I think you know, my friend Pravin is here. He is looking for bright ideas, he is willing to write cheques as long as there’s a bright idea, there is market worthy, that has a good set of people and all that. And on the issue of education, it’s the middle class that does best in education. I’m sure Prannoy, me … we all come from middle class, you know of course I have not done as well as he has done in education. But certainly I think we’ve done reasonably well.

Dr. Roy: I think that’s another thing your son keeps telling you – Do a PHD.

Mr. Murthy: Oh yes…he does.

Dr. Roy: One last question, and we’ll end with a lady again. How about this lady, yes ma’am?

Third woman in audience: I want to ask 2 questions…

Mr. Murthy: Two? No, only one. That’ll be cheating the system, you can’t do that.

Third woman in audience: Ok fine. Why don’t you want to enter into politics? Because even we hate to see murderers in cabinet, but we’d love to see Narayana Murthy in cabinet.

Mr. Murthy: I am very grateful to you for your kindness, but I really have no desire to enter politics. I have no desire at all. On that note, you want to end it?

Dr. Roy: Sometimes personal desire must succumb to society’s desire. One last thing…which everybody here worries a little bit about. Infosys has created this great hope, this great vision for India, many people here, some from Silicon Valley who’ve seen the Internet bubble come and burst. Is this a bubble or has India come of age?

Mr. Murthy: No I don’t think this is a bubble because our business model is based on adding an enduring value to the customer and we’re talking of the IT industry, the software industry.

Dr. Roy: I meant the whole of India because India is the buzz around the world. Is this going to last? Has India come of age?

Mr. Murthy: Oh I think it is going to last because it’s a huge market, we still have not exploited the global markets. You know India’s exports are something like 11% of its GDP, which is really very very small unlike China, Mexico, Brazil, Russia etc, which are big countries other than Mexico which have around 30%. And I think you know we have raw material, we have lot of people, we have a decent sized middle class, so I don’t think India is a bubble.

Dr. Roy: So this 9% is here to stay? (to the audience) Your futures are intact. Relax! Right, so I think we all have been absolutely astounded by your remarkable achievements, your remarkable modesty, and most of all – your amazing value system. Thank you very much.

Mr. Murthy: When you say that, I’m reminded of what Churchill said of Disraeli – I’m sorry of Atlee – I believe somebody said Atlee is a very modest person. Churchill said, “He’s got a lot to be modest about.”

Dr. Roy: Thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much.